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Owain
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 120
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 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| sergeant_x wrote: | | I don't think there's any need to stick with simulated die rolls for task resolution. The computer offers a tremendous opportunity to replace such tedium with real gameplay. It doesn't need to be 'twitch' or 'fps', but it ought to be something more interesting and challenging than point and click die rolling. |
I'm not sure what you are saying here. If you don't have some kind of pseudo-random mechanism to introduce a probablility of success or failure into actions, then you have to have a guaranteed success for any action taken (logically, you could also make for a guaranteed failure, but that wouldn't be very entertaining).
I guess I need some clarification to understand your point.
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sergeant_x
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 602
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Owain wrote: | | I guess I need some clarification to understand your point. |
Indeed. I was vague.
What I'd like to see is something very different from the tabletop paradigm. In most RPGs, skills are just ratings that determine a base chance of success. There's very little gaming involved. You just announce you're going to do something and roll the dice. The game then becomes the process of cranking up your ratings - i.e. "the grind".
The computer allows us to make this much more interesting. Rather than managing lists of skill ratings, I want to make each skill use a game in it's own right. In the ubiquitous example of combat, for instance, when you choose to attack, the results will be determined by strategic and tactical decisions. You should have options for balancing offense and defense, maneuvering should matter, knowledge of an opponents weaknesses, etc, etc... Making combat an engaging game with good degree of strategic depth is not unduly difficult.
To state the obvious, this is a shift from artificial character skill to player skill. But it can be whatever kind of player skill the designer of the game wants to emphasize. Combat could be, as some have suggested, as straight forward as current FPSs. I don't care for those myself and would prefer something less twitchy and more decision-making oriented. The thing is, I'm not trying to proscribe any particular kind of gameplay. I'm just saying it would be cool if we could turn the simulated die-rolling into something more fun to do. This would give us less grind and more game, imho. |
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Owain
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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[quote="sergeant_x"] | Owain wrote: |
The computer allows us to make this much more interesting. Rather than managing lists of skill ratings, I want to make each skill use a game in it's own right. In the ubiquitous example of combat, for instance, when you choose to attack, the results will be determined by strategic and tactical decisions. You should have options for balancing offense and defense, maneuvering should matter, knowledge of an opponents weaknesses, etc, etc... Making combat an engaging game with good degree of strategic depth is not unduly difficult.
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This is still very abstract. Conceptually, it would be nice, but how could this be possibly implemented? What kind of strategic and tactical decisions are you talking about that would be different than games that roll 'dice'. In every MMO I've played, strategies and tactics like the element of surprise, attacking from a position of advantage, numerical superiority, and so forth, were always applicable before the dice throwing even started. Go to any game forum, and there will be tips for things a warrior can do against a ranger/druid/wizard/rogue/paladin/whatever, for example, so the knowledge of weaknesses and strengths is already there.
| Quote: | To state the obvious, this is a shift from artificial character skill to player skill. But it can be whatever kind of player skill the designer of the game wants to emphasize. Combat could be, as some have suggested, as straight forward as current FPSs. I don't care for those myself and would prefer something less twitchy and more decision-making oriented.
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What does this mean? How is this done? Currently I am aware of two models in game PvP, the pseudo-random number/skill method where you click an icon for an attack and the game calculates the results, or the FPS method with a cross hair that has to be positioned accurately when the trigger/mouse button is pressed. Unless you are talking about some kind of Wii virtual reality input device other than the typical mouse/keyboard interface, those are pretty much your choices. What kind of 'decision-making' are you thinking of? With a keyboard/mouse interface, how can that not be a twitchy button pressing frenzy? I'm missing entirely what you are trying to propose.
| Quote: | | The thing is, I'm not trying to proscribe any particular kind of gameplay. I'm just saying it would be cool if we could turn the simulated die-rolling into something more fun to do. This would give us less grind and more game, imho. |
It would be cool if they could just come up with a holodeck implementation, but I don't see that happening either.
I think you want a completly different game paradigm which has never been done before anywhere, which is why you are having such a hard time describing in any kind of detail what you are looking for. If the devs do come up with something revolutionary, something completely different that has ever been done before, and if it works, no one will be happier than me. Your suggestion seems to merely say 'do something new and wonderful'.
Not very useful from a design point of view.
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sergeant_x
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 602
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Owain wrote: | | This is still very abstract. Conceptually, it would be nice, but how could this be possibly implemented? |
It's not as vague as you're thinking. It's just general. I'm not talking about any specific gameplay because any of them could suffice. Basically any game, or genre of game, could work - depending on the task being resolved.
I'm reluctant to break it down into specific examples because then people want to focus on the examples. I'm proposing a new approach to representing task resolution in a roleplaying game. But for the sake of clarity, I'll throw a few out there, purely for illustrative purposes.
Essentially any existing game designs that adequately represent the conflict/challenge at hand could work. Imagine something like chess for fleet combat. Personal combat could be an arcade game like Tekken or some kind of turn-based version of the same, for those who don't like real-time. Engine maintenance could be something like pipedream. Navigation could play something like spider solitaire. Gambling could be a straight up simulation.
The thing is, just about every game that's ever been designed is themed on representing some kind of real challenge - chess models war, puzzles model logical problem-solving, monopoly models economic conquest, etc... Lots of these would be appropriate for gameplay in an RPG.
| Quote: | | I think you want a completely different game paradigm which has never been done before anywhere... |
The only existing example that I know of is Puzzle Pirates, but even though it's a great example of the kind of game I'm talking about, it tends to focus on one kind of gameplay. I'm suggesting expanding on the basic idea pioneered by PP. There's no reason to stop with puzzles.
| Quote: | | In every MMO I've played, strategies and tactics like the element of surprise, attacking from a position of advantage, numerical superiority, and so forth, were always applicable before the dice throwing even started. Go to any game forum, and there will be tips for things a warrior can do against a ranger/druid/wizard/rogue/paladin/whatever, for example, so the knowledge of weaknesses and strengths is already there. |
These games do provide some depth to the combat game. I think it could be a lot better, but yeah, some of them could drop the skill rating stuff and still have fun gameplay. But they don't provide this level of gameplay for any other skills or tasks. Most of them are just point and click exercises. That's the real genius of PP - developing every significant element of the game with unique, interesting gameplay. |
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stragen
Multiverse Moderator
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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I have to admit that there were some addictive games in pp... but its aimed at a casual market... its a collaberation of casual games into a shiney lobby system that happens to resemble going to islands and getting on ships.
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Beau.
The Silent One.
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Acid Serra
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 107
Location: Southern Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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A very wise MMO designer said that MMOs are a collection of Minigames. Ben, I'd recommend finding all the minigames in your proposal and try recompiling the list as a collection of those. Then you'll have a viable design proposition that can be segregated into milestones.
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Raztt
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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mmm mini games.
for skills; hacking, lockpicking, first aid, crafting, mechanics
for fun; card games, casinos, virtual pool/billards, wieghtlifting |
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iKid
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: |
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2008! And I still think this is the best document out there. So a demo's supposed to come now, right?
Right?
No?!
Yes?
Who knows...
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stragen
Multiverse Moderator
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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iKid,
No development has been done, at least none that they have made public...
As far as i know the project hasnt started yet, and i believe its waiting on a more stable and complete version of the MV engine.
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Beau.
The Silent One.
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iKid
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks stragen.
What about the release of 1.5? Does it cover third person shooters, just out of curiosity?
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stragen
Multiverse Moderator
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 481
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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I think... and this is from the glances about the place that 3rd person, turned based combat has been successfully done by a project (i think this was Force of Arms - which may have actually been a real time combat system.)
Real time combat is possible from the discussions that have been going about previously, but at this point i'm not sure on how successful its been.
My focus is more on this forum and my outside projects and at this time have not been able to play around too much with the current engine.
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Beau.
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iKid
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: |
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Well, as long as something is being done, I'm happy. -- Good to know the moderators are still replying to posts.
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Agamemnon
Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 320
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking from Force of Arms- We're not an FPS, but a near-real time combat system. We have the option of both 1st and 3rd person(over the shoulder) View. Actually from our perspective, when space is available in MV's scope we intend to make the game play overall the view of the game from the characters eyes. So if they are on the ground, they'd be seeing at ground level. If in a mech, they'd be seeing from withing the cockpit, and in a battleship command chair or space fighter they would be seeing through the viewscreen. That's the plan anyway.
But to your question, I believe their is a paintball online game that is planning to be a full FPS type game within MV so as far as I can say, I believe it is do-able. Although, there are limits when thinking about an FPS game. normally they go into high detail, high rez models in the genre and that means more meshes, submeshes and textures which becomes less players per server (i.e. 16 vs 16) vice a conventional mmorpg (low poly, low subs, smaller/less textures) and usually equals out to 1000's of players online within a server at one time (i.e. 200 vs 200 pvp).....
oh and on the Firefly question, no one but MV can really answer that. They haven't spoken since last year's AGDC and been really quiet since then. We don't even know if their is a developer already working on it or not. I do hope they release some info on it soon though.
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Hamilton
Multiverse Moderator
Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 1043
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: |
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I believe the game that was mentioned with FPS style combat is Dark Horizons.
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Hamilton
“We used to dream about this stuff. Now, we get to build it. It's pretty neat." - Steve Jobs |
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Abbala
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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I am glad this has provided you with good info. Thanks for your comment.
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